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  1. #91
    Senior Member glowplug is on a distinguished road
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    Except that being tall doesn't make a grain corn into a silage corn anymore than being tall makes one automatically a basketball player.

    The key to a good corn silage is digestibility and all that lignin in a tall grain variety is just going to be manure instead of nutrition.

    Nor does accepting less tonnage make a tall grain hybrid a good deal when tall silage hybrids are superior.

    You're not saving any money. In fact, you'd be better off using those seed production acres to raise corn for sale when we're over $4 /bu.

    Glowplug

  2. #92
    Senior Member 48 is on a distinguished road
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    Except that being tall doesn't make a grain corn into a silage corn anymore than being tall makes one automatically a basketball player.

    WAIT A MINUTE HERE TIGER. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT RECOMMENDED HDS 14' TALL C. LOL.

    The key to a good corn silage is digestibility and all that lignin in a tall grain variety is just going to be manure instead of nutrition.

    I AGREE. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

    Nor does accepting less tonnage make a tall grain hybrid a good deal when tall silage hybrids are superior.

    AGAIN...I AGREE WHAT'S THE POINT?

    You're not saving any money. In fact, you'd be better off using those seed production acres to raise corn for sale when we're over $4 /bu.

    OH YES I AM SAVING MONEY. I HAVE ALREADY WRITTEN THE CHECKS FOR P1395XR=$253.35/BAG. P0902XR=$246.31/BAG. SO....VS $79/BAG, I'M SAVING A LOT OF MONEY. GRANTED, THE OP WILL NOT YIELD WITH THE 902...JUST AS THE 902 WON'T YIELD WITH THE 1395 ON IRRIGATED. BUT, IT IS THE NET PROFIT YOU TAKE TO THE BANK. AND...NEXT YEAR MY SEED COST WON'T BE 79/BAG....IT WILL BE $4.45/BU BASED ON MY FIRST SCALE UP FC. AND...AS I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES BEFORE...I'M PUTTING THE OP ON DRYLAND HERE IN THE DESERT WHERE C ON C YIELD THIS YEAR WAS 55-85BU/A...AND OP CAN MATCH THAT EASY.
    Last edited by 48; 10-24-2010 at 11:50 PM.

  3. #93
    Senior Member 48 is on a distinguished road
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    GP: Tell me your favorite Big M 88-90 day C, and I will buy it and do a side by side with MN13 and "J" Reid's Yellow Dent on dryland C planted on SB stubble. And...I will also plant Little P 902 side by side your favorite Big M, and we will have a little fun here. lol.

  4. #94
    Senior Member glowplug is on a distinguished road
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    48,

    I'll attempt to explain it to you this way. You don't choose to raise "Steins" steers. Well, Stein genetics are geared to making maximum milk. You choose a beef breed that is geared towards maximum rate of gain. A Stein steer will make beef, like a tall grain corn will make silage, but it is NOT the ideal. A beef cow will make milk but not enough to keep a dairy farm happy.

    Thus, the silage bred varieties have special characteristics that make superior silage vs. a tall grain corn.

    Grain corn is bred to make high yields of grain but you don't harvest the stalk. You just want a stiff stalk that supports the weight of that ear until harvest. That means high lignin content in the stalk, which is exactly what you DO NOT want in making digestible corn silage.

    Grain corn is bred to have HARD kernels which survive the combine beating it up, bouncing around the trucks, the dryer, the augers, the rail cars, concrete bin floors, the steel hulled ships, etc. And grain is bred for FAST drydown.

    Ideal silage corn has lower lignin, just enough to support it until chopping so you don't have all that undigestible lignin. The kernels are SOFT textured for high digestibility and SLOW drydown so the kernels don't end up passing through the rumen into the manure.

    And no, your next year's seed cost will not be $4.45 bu. If you take growing seed seriously, you will have to harvest it gently, sort it, dry it, shell it, grade it, germ test it, etc. just like the seed companies do. (Now if you intend to do less than the seed companies do, you'll get out of life what you put into it). And since seed corn produces lower yields than grain corn, you have a lost opportunity where you could have made more money growing cash market corn on those acres. Plus seed corn comes treated and just dumping insecticide in your planter boxes won't do the same work. Then there's the issue of what the OP breeding is resistant to in leaf and stalk diseases, etc. compared to commercial seed. We have no idea what Ma Nature will deal out next year.

    Look 48, I've long said you must look at OP production as a hobby. You're deluding yourself if you believe you're saving money.

    Glowplug

  5. #95
    Senior Member glowplug is on a distinguished road
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    Now on to your second post 48.

    What I plant here at Ft. Cheddar is seed corn that was raised in WI, under irrigation, bred for conditions that typically occur during a WI and MN growing season. I don't know your soil type, your fertility program, don't know your typical weather patterns, don't know your farming methods, your soil drainage, your planting population, etc.

    I do know mine so that's why I choose the highest quality germination seed, high seedling vigor, that will overcome cold, wet, trashy conditions for no-till. I choose varieties from 102 day down to 92 day that stand well, have an offense-defense trait package to counter what insects and plant disease may come up during a typical WI growing season. The forecast for Tuesday calls for 50 mph winds and I'm positive my corn will be standing well on Wednesday (which is another reason NOT to plant Big P here). Yup, I look at yields, drydown, but none of that matters if the seed fails to germinate in no-till conditions. I insist on seeing the saturated cold germ tests of the seed I will take delivery on and it MUST be medium flats to smaller flats that meter precisely where my planter is set to do. NO SUBSTITUES. NO COMPROMISES. And if a seed company has a production failure in a ordered variety, I insist the seed rep. sit down with me and we will find an alternative. He WILL NOT show up on delivery day with a "suprise" substitution. I will know exactly what varieties, seed size, germination, seedling vigor, I am getting long before delivery day.

    So for me to tell you my "favorite" Jung or Lemke varieties that you could plant in other than the WI-MN conditions is like me sending you my favorite shoes to wear.

    You're mistake is planting Big P in the first dang place, then b-itching about high prices. I'm sure that if you look at nearby FIRST trials and look around at competiting seed companies, you'll find something better at a lower cost. Sure you won't get the goofy Big P squiggly beret cap that all the sheeple wear. Oh, when you do leave Big P, the seed pimp will still show up, so take the free seed corn he'll offer trying to re-addict you to the P-cocaine. But never buy anything from him.

    See I'm not trying to make a buck off you. Nor do I own Little M stock (though it is a good buy and I should) so you aren't going to have me seed pimping some 88-90 day varieties. We'll leave seed pimping to "there are moderate muslims" jabber, who defends the indefensible.

    Glowplug

  6. #96
    Senior Member 48 is on a distinguished road
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    GP: Thanx for your thoughtful response. But, you didn't tell me one thing that I have not already know for at least 20 years. I plant Little P in a high yield irrigated environment for one reason and one reason only...it is the best...it has high TW...TW is money...it has the best disease resistance...HXX has the best RW resistance...HX has better CB resistance, etc. Big M has taken all these traits and stacked it on top of their inferior traits. The other reason I plant Little P is cuz you can not get these hybrids anywhere else as opposed to Big M where you can find their varieties at a multitude of different companies. And...Little P is cheaper than Big M's Dekalb.

    There are times when I have recommended Golden Harvest varieties when I knew they were a work horse and you could buy 1, get 1 free. That's a no brainer. Last year I even recommended Big M's DKC52-59 for dryland and limited irrigation. But, all Little P's beat it across the board...even the old workhorse 33B49-B54.
    You presented an eloquent dissertation on the desirable attributes of Silage C. In the real world what silage C's are is varieties that take too long to dry down to be a grain C, so they peddle them as silage C's. I can remember when silage C's were floor sweepings.

    You try to overcomplicate the process of saving seed C. You remind me of certified wheat seed producers out here trying to tell you why you should only plant certified W seed instead of saving your own. You make a big deal about cold germ tests. This is a point without distinction as all commercial corn seed producers refrigerate their seed C. My own will be refrigerated thru the winter on a bobtail or tandem in my shop. lol. Before, I plant it, I will do a germ test...just like I used to do on seed wheat...to see what population I need to plant to get the desired harvest population. This is one extra step as opposed to reading the Germ on the seed tag. Then, I will set the appropriate sprockets on my JD7100 finger pickup planter and plant a picket fence.

    Unless I can figure out a way to size MF, that's the only substantive issue that you raise, and I can solve that by putting seed firmers on the planter. I like MF cuz I want the seed to be at the bottom of the V slice without using sword dicks. lol. Your point about water absorption vs even emergence is also a valid point. But, for the amount of money we're talking about saving here, it is a non-issue.

    I know different parts of the country are different: soils, altitude, rainfall, night time temps (we cool off), etc, BUT your refusal to specify varieties tells me that you know you're going to lose....ON NET PROFIT THAT YOU TAKE TO THE BANK ON DRYLAND...soooo...I will pick a variety for you for the side by sides. lol.

  7. #97
    Senior Member 48 is on a distinguished road
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    Hey jabber: You know how you never sent me the Faust Award of a used Little P jacket and a empty bottle of Crown???? Well...I told my local Little P dealer about this. He took off his jacket and handed it to me. That night he went to the bar and got an empty bottle of Crown. I understand everybody got looped cuz all the bottles were full. The next day he brought me the empty bottle of Crown. Sooooooo....consider your obligation paid in full by your compatriot out here. lol.

  8. #98
    Senior Member glowplug is on a distinguished road
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    48 posted: "In the real world what silage C's are is varieties that take too long to dry down to be a grain C, so they peddle them as silage C's. "

    ------------------No 48, it is not drydown that is the determining factor in making a superior silage corn. It is higher energy (plant sugars) content and lower lignin (the stuff that makes a grain corn stalk stand, even when harvest is delayed, even into Spring).

    Corn silage varieties are as different from grain corn as beef cows are different from dairy cows.

    Nor am I trying to complicate your seed corn production process. I'm suggesting to you that paying $100 per bag for a conventional hybrid is not a bad value compared to you producing your OP seed if you are comparing apples to apples for the resulting product.

    Nor is a saturated cold germ test the equal to storing OP seed in your shop all winter. A saturated cold test as done by Midwest Seed Services in Brookings, SD. is placing seeds on a tray, sub-irrigating it during the test which is 50F degrees for 7 days followed by a 64 hour 77F warm period.

    What is seed industry standard is the warm germ test, which really doesn't tell you much, nor does it match typical cold, wet Spring soil planting conditions. I suggest you read:

    Seeds Up Close - Farm Journal Spring 2006 issue

    which you can google search and find.

    And if you are going to grow your own seed, you will find the Seeds Up Close article an education.

    As to alternatives to you getting screwed by Big P, I suggest you google FIRST Trials and view some independent (non-seed company) plot results. There may be a non-Big P, non-Little M alternative that you're missing out on.

    I personally don't mind spending money that makes me more money. And being cheap is not always the best way to invest money. Being of German heritage, I'm about as frugal as they come, well maybe Faust is even cheaper. With seed being only 10-13% of corn production costs, I'm still far more focused on the 50% of COP, that being fertilizer. If I can get the same bu. with less fertilizer, I'll do it. But I won't screw myself out of profit by shorting my crop, either.

    Good luck on your OP venture but do live in reality while your doing it........

    Glowplug

  9. #99
    Senior Member SDakotan is on a distinguished road SDakotan's Avatar
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    48, You are a man of numbers. You claim that the OP will do what the other numbers will do. Do you have any data to match this statement? I am not saying you are wrong, I just find it hard to believe you can take a OP corn and outnet a hybrid.

  10. #100
    Senior Member 48 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDakotan View Post
    48, You are a man of numbers. You claim that the OP will do what the other numbers will do. Do you have any data to match this statement? I am not saying you are wrong, I just find it hard to believe you can take a OP corn and outnet a hybrid.
    SD: I never said OP could yield with hybrids. I said just the opposite. I said OP's top out at 160, and they can NOT yield with hybrids. That's why I'm planting P1395XR on my irrigated. It has the capability to do 270. Unfortunatel, my humidifiers can't. lol.

    Most around here plant dryland C in a W-C-F rotation. I have dropped W. I do a straight SB-C rotation on dryland...and irrigated. And...before I would go back to summerfallow W, I do dryland C on C. My renter did this this year and got 55-85. (I'm taking all the ground back.)

    What I have said...over and over...is that out here in the desert, OP can yield 55-85 no problem.

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